Bans: What are our choices

[longhouse]

I could go on about choices but having town meetings and speaking out doesn't work. If you don't want a ban, another choice is simply break it. If only one person breaks it, it's useless and the offender just is fined and never heard from. If many break it, it can be challenged on the constitutional level. It's basically unconstitutional to pass laws based on fraud.

There's another way. Of all the people out there trying to use tobacco control, they need to have a licience, or a certification in drug/alcohol counseling. If they don't then they are breaking the law. You cannot act as a counselor without a licience. The antis are doing just that.

The challenge in court: How can they pass laws on non-facts? How can anti smokers talk to people about the dangers of smoking when in fact they haven't proven that they have been trained to do so? How can they get facts on smoking and health, when the lawmakers are using fraud for a jurisdiction on bans?

There is no substance on bans, there is no proof on passive smoke, and there is no legal justification nor professional jurisdiction to order masses of population not to smoke.

Air: "Air" is not owned by anyone, nor a government. You cannot regulate "air" nor control the direction of it.

Public nuisance: If smoking is a public nuisance, plus tobacco is legal, they just use the same controls as they use on leaf burning. Burning with either ventilation to reduce harm, or provide a smoker's restaurant or establishment for this purpose so that the nuisance is "contained" within the facility. It's not legal to ban the use of tobacco or prohibit the use of ventilation, or harm reduction in the attempt to ban tobacco use.

To the anti, it's not about smoke actually. It's all about smoking. It's all about tobacco. Why else are they banning smokeless tobacco if it were solely because of smoke?

Longhouse my two centavos

[Maryetta]

It seems like every area is different as to how the bans are being implemented.

You need to understand what your area is doing then learn the political process needed to stop it.

The antis have learned the system - to use against us. We must learn it to use it against them to stop them.

There is no one "canned answer" as every area is different.

[longhouse]

Living here overseas, I get to hear the opinions on bans from people from the UK. It seems that most of them including smokers are glad for the bans because they claim that they've been smoking their way out of the pubs themselves and that fresh air is welcomed. No one in general UK is protesting at all, at all. This is what we're up against, stark resistance.

I could go into the harm reduction idea of Germany. I could say that Germany remembers the 3rd Reich better than anyone else in the world. But what I am seeing is the word ban itself. It's being used for just about everything. Ban parking, ban air traffic over Manhattan, ban walking dogs in the park, ban children playing in the parks for fear of predation, ban ban ban! When we began hearing "politically correct" I knew we were all in trouble.

It's words. Words are vessels that carry many meanings to different people. Ban means something in Germany that should be conveyed to the free world.

I've suspected for a long time that we need to infiltrate the west with new slogans, words that will stick and work. We have to start under the surface just as the antis did.

One way to do this is to work with others that are cojunct in agreement to product use, freedom, and getting WHO off the chart. Antis did this with kids, homes, schools. We can do this with politicians, parents who want kids to think for themselves, restaurant, bar, and other commercial associations and start using "harm reduction" in our mantra. Fighting bans with facts are simply not enough! We have to offer solutions that aren't my way or the highway, all or nothing. A civilized cooperation, justice, tolerance, breaking this war mentality. Nations at war are at war with themselves. Always was always will be that way.

We need to dare to break the mindset. Remember the days of "brotherly/sisterly love" and the proper wording of the Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." Not Clint Eastwood's version. Do unto others before others do unto you. Or "make my day." All these are seeds of havoc that have placed us where we are. If they keep using ban, we need to start using "freedomban" everywhere ban is used. Give it a new meaning. Yup. Another freedom ban.

My life follows my speech. Change my language, change my life. Who is going to dare to do this in the row or scoff? We are.

Longhouse

[beachsmoker]

I think the bans on junk food and fatty food will also likely go this way. If the government takes it away from me, then I can't eat it so I will lose weight without having to try! They will be "forced" on a diet and do not have to exercize control as the government will have done this for them!

I think Americans *like* to be nannied. They are used to being coddled from the time they are born. They are used to the government looking out for them so they do not have to take responsibility, they do not have to think, they do not have to own up to thier own actions.

So, they will get what they want. If they want communism, they should move to China, but of course, then they would have to take responsibility for their own actions. And, communists are free to smoke. Heaven forbid!

[longhouse]

The use of brutality against them is a must and it feels good. The last time someone came over to my payline complaining to me about my resentments caused me to threaten him out loud that if he didn't get away from me now I'm going to dice his skull down that "f n" escalator. I handed my wife my glasses. She protested but I loosened her grip from me and made my way toward the little........... Under Philippine law, I might get fined for punching him, but he'd get fined for walking over to me and getting punched also.

I don't advocate violence. I don't argue against it either. See where Iam? Defend yourself no matter what it takes. Tell other smokers to stand up for themselves. I'm realizing that I'm a total failure in getting along with others since this anti smoking crap came along, so I don't even try anymore. I just charge back at them like a bull!

So gather, protest, don't ask city council jack squat. Demand them to leave people alone. People are strange. They are willing to let a government force them into everything but if you scan the news today in the US people are acting out in rage, in schools, in parking lots. It's bad but they need to know who the real culprit is. Not each other. Continue efforts in trying to redirect other's stupid ignorant attention off of smokers and on to a corrupt broken government that is so ridden in sin, lust, perversion. A wrecked government cannot pass a smoking band and you need to tell your locals the same thing.

Next you need to do this. Act locally, think globally. The UN, the World Health Organization needs to be told that we're demanding them to stop this fraud and human rights violations and that we are not bending to the demands of WHO period. Start writing letters to their offices by the thousands telling our government, and the stinking UN that "we are not going to allow corrupt governments with abuse of power into our personal choices or lifestyles. Stay out."

The problem with srg's is they won't activate and smokers club members actually blasted me for activism. I blasted them back for cowardice because srg's do nothing except whine and complain and insult anyone who tries to inspire them to act. I tried and it backfired so I blasted the Smokers club for being on the side of the antis defacto because the members are too much of a coward to fight for themselves. Truth hurts but truth is truth.

Longhouse

[jploughman]

Ever wonder how so many people could let themselves be led off to concentration camps and ultimately to the gas chambers? It seems to me going down fighting would preferable. The truth is they were ever so slowly led down the path.

At first there were merely critizied and chose to ignore, rather that confront, hoping it would subside. But it didn't subside, it slowly excellerated to ostracization, then vilification, and finally exorcism. It is hard to determine at which point it became to late but when it does become to late, the abilitly to confront and fight back is lost.

Sound familiar smokers? I've heard some speak of withholding medical care from smokers who refuse to quit.

The anti-smoking forces are already, essentially in control of the media, the bureaucracy, and medicine, to name a few. (e.g. a protest group of about 100 at the Indiana State House, protesting a proposed cigarrette tax increase, got only a 5 second blip on 1 local news channel followed a 30 second rebuttal interview of a tax proponent.) Read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich for their game plan.

There are far to many apologetic smokers among us, I'm sure you know some. When do you suppose it will be to late for us.

[gilster]

Please read on Neo-Communism
http://www.individualistvoice.com/vazsonyi.html

All this can be traced back to when the Berlin Wall fell. IMHO

[aerospeed]

Sound familiar smokers? I've heard some speak of withholding medical care from smokers who refuse to quit.

The anti-smoking forces are already, essentially in control of the media, the bureaucracy, and medicine, to name a few. (e.g. a protest group of about 100 at the Indiana State House, protesting a proposed cigarrette tax increase, got only a 5 second blip on 1 local news channel followed a 30 second rebuttal interview of a tax proponent.) Read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich for their game plan.

There are far to many apologetic smokers among us, I'm sure you know some. When do you suppose it will be to late for us.

Too late? I don't know but I don't think we're there yet.

I try to stay optimistic and I think you should try to as well. After all, you're here, aren't you? That's really something! And we get new people signing up every week.

Nice to see your new pixels here!

Best regards,
Jim

[Nickstar II]

Until you publicly humiliate Smoker Ban proponents like our very own
Dr. Bauer, President of the Ontario Medical Association, who pointedly stated that it would take "hurricane force winds" to clear the air of second hand smoke in a car, we are not going anywhere fast in beating back
the smoking prohibitionists.

He made this completely assinine statement in relation to proposing a smoking ban in private vehicles complete with heavy fines.

With this statement alone, parroting the complete, anti-smoking buffoon James Repace, the head of the Ontario OMA severely damages any credibility that doctors may have on this subject.

Obviously, power windows and power moonroofs/sunroofs mean nothing to this medical quack bent on smoking prohibition.

He is obviously unaware of the simple physical fact that, with windows down and sunroof open(even partially), "smoke rises and is evacuated" in such an environment. Therefore, the deadly Second Hand Scam nonsense of "sidestream" smoke is non-existent and, therefore, irrelevant.

Furthermore, a "private vehicle" cannot be a "public place" no matter who or what is in it.

[jploughman]

I try to stay optimistic and I think you should try to as well. After all, you're here, aren't you? That's really something! And we get new people signing up every week.

I am optimistic but optimism is not enough.

Nazis victims optimisticallly believed believed no one would go as far as they would, but were wrong.

The number of places we can smoke are steadily declining. Some of us can avoid the restaurants, airports, job sites and many other locations but most can't and choose instead to adapt. It won't be long before adapting will no longer be an option.

My point is, we must convey that message to the non-confrontational closet smokers, the adapters. We must elist their help to make it politically and financially undesireable for any one to advocate banning smoking.

[aerospeed]

My point is, we must convey that message to the non-confrontational closet smokers, the adapters. We must elist their help to make it politically and financially undesireable for any one to advocate banning smoking.

Agreed. But that's the trick, isn't it? There are (estimated) 40,000,000 smokers in the US alone, most, as you describe them, non-confrontational. But how are you going to mobilize them? Can you imagine how much clout 40,000,000 smokers could/would have, if they could be organized around a common purpose? Think boycott. Pretty awesome, imo.

However, until then, I'll try to stay optimistic. It helps me deal with all this stuff...

Best regards,
Jim

[jploughman]

Agreed. But that's the trick, isn't it? There are (estimated) 40,000,000 smokers in the US alone, most, as you describe them, non-confrontational. But how are you going to mobilize them? Can you imagine how much clout 40,000,000 smokers could/would have, if they could be organized around a common purpose? Think boycott. Pretty awesome, imo.

How about a special bulletin somewhere, maybe on this site;

Politicians: How they voted on smoking bans.
Restaurants: By location, do they permit smoking
Hotels: That ban smoking
Airports: Do they have smoking areas

I'm sure you can probably come up with some of your own.

As you said, more and more smokers are joining this site. There is only so much we can say to to each other since we are all pretty much in agreement. Give those that don't want to say something a reason to log on .

[aerospeed]

Agreed. But that's the trick, isn't it? There are (estimated) 40,000,000 smokers in the US alone, most, as you describe them, non-confrontational. But how are you going to mobilize them? Can you imagine how much clout 40,000,000 smokers could/would have, if they could be organized around a common purpose? Think boycott. Pretty awesome, imo.

How about a special bulletin somewhere, maybe on this site;

Politicians: How they voted on smoking bans.
Restaurants: By location, do they permit smoking
Hotels: That ban smoking
Airports: Do they have smoking areas.

Be careful what you ask for around here...you just may get asked to do it.

Best regards,
Jim

[nightlight]

The number of places we can smoke are steadily declining. Some of us can avoid the restaurants, airports, job sites and many other locations but most can't and choose instead to adapt. It won't be long before adapting will no longer be an option.

My point is, we must convey that message to the non-confrontational closet smokers, the adapters. We must elist their help to make it politically and financially undesireable for any one to advocate banning smoking.

The problem is that vast majority of smokers were brainwashed, like the rest of population, that smoking is bad for them and those around them, that smoking is a vice. You can't convince very many people to join in a defense of what they believe is a vice, even if it is their own. For example, how many societies for defense of 'wife beaters' or 'drunken drivers' rights are there? Will 'wife beaters' create any such and join en masse if one were to tell them that their ways of handling family disagreements are eroding and in grave danger? Of course not.

In contrast to the present antismoking brainwashing, people have smoked tobacco for over ten millennia and cultivated it for seven millennia as a wholesome medicinal plant, the most potent one humans have ever had. That was a general view, based on thousands of years of human experience with tobacco, until just few decades ago, when the antismoking swindle was pulled out of thin air, based on the worst kind of junk science. The antismoking con is making enormous amounts of money, stolen from the smokers, for the conmen behind it, chiefly the pharmaceutical industry (albeit, FORCES only looks at their nicotine replacement "therapy" profits, which is just a tiny tip of their profit iceberg, see few examples here or here, here).

Therefore, the message that needs to be passed on to fellow smokers is a simple scientific fact (which is based on hard science, from the antismoking interests themselves) that "Smoking is good for you" (see also a thread here, all posts by "nightlight", where this fact was defended in much more detail against a pack of health zealots; many further facts and links are given in my posts on usenet and speakeasy). The upshot of all the collected scientific evidence is that tobacco smoke is not merely harmless, but it is the most potent medicinal substance and youth elixir, natural or synthetic, bar none, humans have ever known.

Once the 50+ millions of American smokers are aware that 'smoking is good them', the antismoking swindle will be wiped out instantly. Some thoughts on how to get there from here were given on speakeasy (post-1, post-2, post-3 and post-4).

Therefore, the present Multimedia initiative, aiming to educate general public that smoking isn't quite as bad as commonly believed and that SHS is mostly harmless, is not merely a waste of time and resources, but it is explicitly counterproductive since it reinforces in the minds of smokers themselves the fundamental 'big lie' of the antismoking conmen (that smoking is bad at all, when it is exactly the opposite). That 'big lie' was what started the entire con in late 1950s and its effect, in addition to directly harming smoker's health via 'witch doctor effect', is to paralyze smokers from defending themselves against the antismoking parasite. Accepting it leads inevitably to where we are now, only faster the second time around. Hence, smoker organizations should stop wasting time and resources on educating general public about SHS, or trying to organize smokers around liberty issues, since that will keep failing, as it always did, for the reason above.

The sole focus of smoker organizations in the present situation need to be tens of millions (or 1-2 billions worldwide) of brainwashed smokers and and how to get to them as quickly as possible the simple fact: "smoking is good for you". All the rest will happen automatically.

[Jim]

Thanks for all that useful information, Nightlight and welcome to the Tavern. Personal experiences and personal observations of others have convinced me many years ago that the "Witch Doctor Effect" plays a much bigger role in sickness and death than doctors who view us as nothing but bio units with no spirit or soul realize.

Antis who are claiming active smoking is the #1 cause of preventable deaths and passive smoking, the 3rd, are still living in the dark ages of medicine. Whether they realize it or not, they are the witch doctors and the #1 cause of premature deaths when they kill off all the morons who buy their nonsense.

On the other hand, life with spirit, purpose, and strength has a major effect on health and longevity. The more alive we are, the harder it is to kill us.

Many of your suggestions for building a powerful movement to destroy the Antis and their fanaticism and fraud are already in the works. I think you'll like our Multi Media Project when we get it operational. Of course, since none of us get paid for all the time we put into this, and have to balance our activism with having to make a living, our success depends on how much support we can get.